Official Mormon Beliefs: the Important Ones
Posted by Brian on August 6, 2007
Here’s the sort of stuff I’m used to reading about the Mormon Church. …… And this one if you like to read. For the sake of fairness, I thought I’d read and judge what the Mormons themselves would say.
This came from the official LDS website, so it should be a very accurate portrayal of what the Mormon Church currently believes and teaches about Jesus, his sacrifice, and the Holy Spirit. My own thoughts are in bold. You may be surprised at how little you disagree with the Mormon Church. I was. At least on the surface. The difficult thing to sift through is what we have been told about the Mormon Church and what is actually true today, because from all accounts, the Mormon Church has changed some things over time. Not surprisingly, the Mormons are accused of covering up what they really teach and really believe. They are accused of hiding their “true” beliefs in language that sounds Christian. Even I have said that here on this blog based on what I knew of Mormon teaching, or have been told in the past. At any rate, it’s important to consider carefully what is said, and what it means.
Here’s what the Mormon Church believes about Jesus, His sacrifice, and the Holy Spirit. (with a few comments from me)
-
Jesus Christ
Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God the Father in the flesh.
(I reread that sentence and wasn’t sure until I read down the page a bit. Evidently they simply mean Jesus was the Son of God in the flesh, which is true. Not the best sentence structure though.
He was the Creator,
(that surprised me)
He is our Savior, and He will be our Judge. Under the direction of our Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ created the earth.
(the Bible says he created the universe, but I’m still impressed the Mormons are putting Jesus at the beginning of creation, meaning Jesus predated his life on earth. That’s much closer to the Bible than I thought they were.)
Through His suffering in the Garden of Gethsemane and by giving His life on the cross—that is, by performing the Atonement—Jesus Christ saves us from our sins as we follow Him. Through His Resurrection, Jesus Christ saves us from physical death. Because He overcame death, we will all be given the gift of resurrection.
(Not much to argue over when it comes down to it. Let’s dig deeper)
-
On January 1, 2000, the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles issued the following declaration. Titled “The Living Christ,” this declaration bears witness of the Lord Jesus Christ and summarizes His identity and divine mission:
(In ancient times, the words considered “Scripture” were considered such, NOT because the writers were officially ranking members of a Church, but because the writers had been certified by God through prophecy spoken through them -which proved true- or miracles or both. After all, if I could raise the dead, my opinion would matter more wouldn’t it? These days we like to appoint our own Scripture writing apostles and popes etc… Sorry, just something that annoys me when I think about it too much…
)
“As we commemorate the birth of Jesus Christ two millennia ago, we offer our testimony of the reality of His matchless life and the infinite virtue of His great atoning sacrifice. None other has had so profound an influence upon all who have lived and will yet live upon the earth.
“He was the Great Jehovah of the Old Testament,
(yes! they surprised me again)
the Messiah of the New. Under the direction of His Father, He was the creator of the earth. ‘All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made’ (John 1:3). Though sinless, He was baptized to fulfill all righteousness. He ‘went about doing good’ (Acts 10:38), yet was despised for it. His gospel was a message of peace and goodwill.
(not always, but this is “politically-correct-church-speak” -and this is also the pot calling the kettle black admittedly)
He entreated all to follow His example.
(actually, his main message was to repent but I’m splitting hairs)
He walked the roads of Palestine, healing the sick, causing the blind to see, and raising the dead. He taught the truths of eternity, the reality of our premortal existence,
(false, finally! Something I can disagree with! This is no where in the Bible.)
the purpose of our life on earth, (to repent)
and the potential for the sons and daughters of God in the life to come.
(Not really, although Jesus talked about making it to the life to come as does any church. But in this statement is couched a Mormon teaching of attaining the level of a god ourselves and ruling over our own world. ***As you’ll see below, Mormons dispute my characterization here. And perhaps this IS an exaggeration as a comment below indicated we can never reach the same level as Christ except that by God’s grace we are made co-heirs with him and rule WITH Jesus. If this is all they mean, then the Bible is consistent with that. If they mean attaining our own god-status in our “exaltation” then the Bible is not consistent with it.***
All in all, despite the disagreements over the life to come and whether we had a premortal existence, I was encouraged, but… didn’t you know there had to be a “but?”…. think closely over the words. If we had a premortal existence, is this what they mean when they speak of Christ having a premortal existence? We were all spirits, according to the Mormon Church, until we came down to earth by the power of the Father to live our physical existence. The Mormon Church seems to be bringing us up to the level of Jesus, and Jesus down to our level. I could use some clarification. They wrote that God chose to create the world through Christ before Christ became a physical being on this earth. Why him? Why not me? I’m still not sure how Jesus is different or the same as anyone else. Calling Jesus the God (Jehovah) of the Old Testament is fine, but they also believe YOU and I can become a God of our own world.
***A comment below disputes that Mormonism teaches we can become a God ourselves in the same way Jesus is God. Good for them! I’m glad to know one of the big accusations against the Mormon Church isn’t accurate.***
So was Christ just a guy who did well and became a god? *** see comments below from frui*** The Bible says Jesus and the Father are One. Jesus said if you have seen him, you have seen the Father. John 14. Perhaps if we read a bit further…
“He instituted the sacrament as a reminder of His great atoning sacrifice. He was arrested and condemned on spurious charges, convicted to satisfy a mob, and sentenced to die on Calvary’s cross. He gave His life to atone for the sins of all mankind. His was a great vicarious gift in behalf of all who would ever live upon the earth.
(no contradictions or disagreements with the Bible there)
“We solemnly testify that His life, which is central to all human history, neither began in Bethlehem nor concluded on Calvary. He was the Firstborn of the Father, the Only Begotten Son in the flesh, the Redeemer of the world.
(I would agree with those statements)
“He rose from the grave to ‘become the firstfruits of them that slept’ (1 Corinthians 15:20). As Risen Lord, He visited among those He had loved in life. He also ministered among His ‘other sheep’ (John 10:16) in ancient America. In the modern world, He and His Father appeared to the boy Joseph Smith, ushering in the long-promised ‘dispensation of the fulness of times’ (Ephesians 1:10).
(uh… well that’s Mormon belief, but it’s not supported by the Bible or by those Scriptures given. In John 10:16, Jesus was speaking to the Jews and explaining to them who he was and what he was doing and going to do. The New Testament goes to great lengths to explain that God was not sending the Messiah Jesus to the Jews only, as many of the Jews believed, but sending Jesus to the whole world, Jews and Gentiles alike. In the context of the New Testament, this is what Jesus was speaking about. No where in the Bible does Jesus ever say he is going to leave and go to another place altogether and preach and perform his ministry again. The Mormons have to read a lot into this verse to get that. Ephesians 1:10 is saying everything is going to be brought under the Lordship of Christ when the times have reached their fulfillment. He ushered that in according to previous verse, when Christ came the first time.)
“Of the Living Christ, the Prophet Joseph wrote: ‘His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:
(it’s exactly what John wrote about Jesus in Revelation 1… it’s not a plagarism, but I would say that’s where he got it. If Joe had written something different however, I would have thrown Revelation at him.)
” ‘I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father’ (D&C 110:3–4).
(Do I believe Joseph talked to Christ in this way? No I don’t. But does this quote above contradict anything in the Bible? Nope. It’s fine.)
“Of Him the Prophet also declared: ‘And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives!
” ‘For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father—
” ‘That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God’ (D&C 76:22–24).
(Everything was just fine until the last comment. Again, are we any different according to the Mormon Church, than Jesus? Perhaps more importantly, does it matter? You know, I think it does for those who have been told the truth, who have heard and read the words of the Scriptures. Throughout the doctrine there is a discernable lack of worship of Jesus Christ, and more of a focus on being as good as we can, and doing as good as we can so we can be as powerful as Jesus. May I never put my faith in me, but throw myself before Christ seeking him to be my All in All, my Savior and my God! We don’t obey the Church, we obey Christ! We don’t follow a Church, we follow Christ. He is God Almighty, the Ancient of Days.)
“We declare in words of solemnity that His priesthood and His Church have been restored upon the earth—’built upon the foundation of apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone’ (Ephesians 2:20).
(It is the usually stated belief of the Mormon Church that the Church Jesus founded in Israel has failed and therefore Christ “restored” his church by founding the Mormon Church. As part of the Church Jesus founded in Israel, I disagree. Just sayin’.)
“We testify that He will someday return to earth. ‘And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together’ (Isaiah 40:5). He will rule as King of Kings and reign as Lord of Lords, and every knee shall bend and every tongue shall speak in worship before Him. Each of us will stand to be judged of Him according to our works and the desires of our hearts.
(judged according to our works, and saved according to our faith would be more accurate)
“We bear testimony, as His duly ordained Apostles, (ordained by man, not by miracles or through the demonstration of God’s power) that Jesus is the Living Christ, the immortal Son of God. He is the great King Immanuel, who stands today on the right hand of His Father. He is the light, the life, and the hope of the world. His way is the path that leads to happiness in this life and eternal life in the world to come. God be thanked for the matchless gift of His divine Son” (Ensign, Apr. 2000, 2–3).
(good stuff there)
-
Atonement of Jesus Christ
As used in the scriptures, to atone is to suffer the penalty for sins, thereby removing the effects of sin from the repentant sinner and allowing him or her to be reconciled to God.
(the condemnation of sin, the effects of sin are present with us as long as we live on this planet, but that’s not a big argument)
Jesus Christ was the only one capable of carrying out the Atonement for all mankind. Because of His Atonement, all people will be resurrected,
(all people were resurrected before anyway Luke 16:19-31, some just went to hell)
and those who obey His gospel will receive the gift of eternal life with God. (true)
As descendants of Adam and Eve, all people inherit the effects of the Fall.
(true and this time, effects is a good word -see Romans 7)
In our fallen state, we are subject to opposition and temptation. When we give in to temptation, we are alienated from God,
(see James 1:14-15)
and if we continue in sin, we experience spiritual death, being separated from His presence. We are all subject to temporal death, which is the death of the physical body (see Alma 42:6-9; D&C 29:41–42).
(unless you’re one of the lucky few getting raptured into the eternal state at the end of the world -I Thessalonians 4:15-18)
The only way for us to be saved is for someone else to rescue us. We need someone who can satisfy the demands of justice—standing in our place to assume the burden of the Fall and to pay the price for our sins. Jesus Christ has always been the only one capable of making such a sacrifice.
(yep yep)
From before the Creation of the earth, the Savior has been our only hope for “peace in this world, and eternal life in the world to come” (D&C 59:23).
Only He had the power to lay down His life and take it up again. From His mortal mother, Mary, He inherited the ability to die. From His immortal Father, He inherited the power to overcome death. He declared, “As the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself” (John 5:26).
(close enough)
Only He could redeem us from our sins. God the Father gave Him this power (see Helaman 5:11).
(by the way, Helaman is not in the Bible)
The Savior was able to receive this power and carry out the Atonement because He kept Himself free from sin: “He suffered temptations but gave no heed unto them” (D&C 20:22). Having lived a perfect, sinless life, He was free from the demands of justice. Because He had the power of redemption and because He had no debt to justice, he could pay the debt for those who repent.
(I don’t believe Jesus had to have some special power given him to overcome death. Romans 6:23 say the wages of sin is death. Jesus had no sin, death had no mastery over him. Therefore Jesus could lay his life down and take it up again. I may be splitting hairs.)
Jesus’s atoning sacrifice took place in the Garden of Gethsemane and on the cross at Calvary. In Gethsemane He submitted to the will of the Father and began to take upon Himself the sins of all people. He has revealed some of what He experienced as He paid the price for our sins:
“I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;
“But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;
“Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—
“Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men” (D&C 19:16–19; see also Luke 22:44; Mosiah 3:7).
(the only part from the Bible there is Luke 22:44, which is this the passage which says Jesus was in such anguish that the sweat falling from him was like drops of blood falling to the ground. The rest are Mormon writings which they consider Scripture)
The Savior continued to suffer for our sins when He allowed Himself to be crucified—”lifted up upon the cross and slain for the sins of the world” (1 Nephi 11:33).
(Mormon book, but the statement is fine)
On the cross, He allowed Himself to die. His body was then laid in a tomb until He was resurrected and became “the firstfruits of them that slept” (1 Corinthians 15:20). Through His death and Resurrection, He overcame physical death for us all.
(yep yep)
Jesus Christ redeems all people from the effects of the Fall.
(well, not yet. A lot of suffering continues to go on in this world)
All people who have ever lived on the earth and who ever will live on the earth will be resurrected and brought back into the presence of God to be judged (see 2 Nephi 2:5–10; Helaman 14:15–17).
(Mormon books, but the Bible speaks of the same things. Revelation 20:11-15 or Matthew 25:31-46)
Through the Savior’s gift of mercy and redeeming grace, we will all receive the gift of immortality and live forever in glorified, resurrected bodies.
(all those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of Life i.e… those who have put their faith in Jesus)
Although we are redeemed unconditionally from the universal effects of the Fall, we are accountable for our own sins. But we can be forgiven and cleansed from the stain of sin if we “apply the atoning blood of Christ” (Mosiah 4:2). We must exercise faith in Jesus Christ, repent, be baptized for the remission of sins, and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
(Mosiah is a Mormon book. Nevertheless, the call to put our faith in Christ, repent and be baptized and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit is all over the New Testament)
Holy Ghost
The Holy Ghost is the third member of the Godhead. He is a personage of spirit, without a body of flesh and bones. He is often referred to as the Spirit, the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God, the Spirit of the Lord, or the Comforter.
(sounds fine)
Roles of the Holy Ghost
The Holy Ghost works in perfect unity with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, fulfilling several roles to help us live righteously and receive the blessings of the gospel.
He “witnesses of the Father and the Son” (2 Nephi 31:18) and reveals and teaches “the truth of all things” (Moroni 10:5).
(Mormon books, but Jesus said the same thing in John 14 and 16)
We can receive a sure testimony of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ only by the power of the Holy Ghost. His communication to our spirit carries far more certainty than any communication we can receive through our natural senses.
(Boy doesn’t that set a person up to be deceived? What you FEEL is more accurate than anything you can read or be told? The Bible says, “each one is tempted when, by HIS OWN EVIL DESIRE, he is dragged away and enticed.” -James 1:14. The Bible says again, Paul writing this time: “I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.” -Romans 7:18. In the Jewish Temple, God commanded that bread representing the word of God, and light representing the Spirit of God be in the same room. A teacher explained to me God was showing them they needed to interpret the Word by the Spirit, and whatever they felt the Spirit was saying to them had to be measured against the Word. He said, “There’s a zillion demons and one Holy Spirit, so you heard a voice…” I thought it was a good point. Even more accurately however, the Bible says “Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of the Lord.” -Luke 4:4, Matthew 4:4, and Deuteronomy 8:3. Every word includes the words of the Bible, not just the words we think we heard in our heart. Be careful to compare the words. After all, “All Scripture is God-breathed” -II Timothy 3:16 and can be read with your eyes, one of the five senses.)
As we strive to stay on the path that leads to eternal life, the Holy Ghost can guide us in our decisions and protect us from physical and spiritual danger.
Through Him, we can receive gifts of the Spirit for our benefit and for the benefit of those we love and serve (see D&C 46:9–11).
(sounds good to me)
He is the Comforter (John 14:26). As the soothing voice of a loving parent can quiet a crying child, the whisperings of the Spirit can calm our fears, hush the nagging worries of our life, and comfort us when we grieve. The Holy Ghost can fill us “with hope and perfect love” and “teach [us] the peaceable things of the kingdom” (Moroni 8:26; D&C 36:2).
(Mormon books, sounds fine though.)
Through His power, we are sanctified as we repent, receive the ordinances of baptism and confirmation, and remain true to our covenants (see Mosiah 5:1–6; 3 Nephi 27:20; Moses 6:64–68).
(Mormon books. Sanctified means set apart, made holy so God can use you. The Bible says we are sanctified by the Holy Spirit -I Corinthians 6:11, II Thessalonians 2:13, I Peter 1:2, and through Christs blood -Hebrews 10:29 and our faith -Acts 26:18. We are not sanctified by adherence to religious rituals, our our adherence to a particular Church’s rules and regulations. We surrender to God, He sanctifies us by the Spirit because of Christ’s shed blood and our faith. It is a past tense thing in the Bible for all who have put their faith in Jesus Christ.)
He is the Holy Spirit of Promise (see Ephesians 1:13; D&C 132:7, 18–19, 26).
(The title is fine, only Ephesians is from the Bible)
In this capacity, He confirms that the priesthood ordinances we have received and the covenants we have made are acceptable to God. This approval depends on our continued faithfulness.
(The Bible does not confirm the priesthood ordinances of the Mormon Church, but does confirm the priesthood of all believers. I Peter 2:9. We are all ministers of a new covenant from God through Christ. As Peter wrote, “that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.” If God’s approval of us, however, depended upon our faithfulness, we are all in big trouble. Faithfulness indicates our adherence to something. -I was faithful in my duties as a security guard. In this way, none of us have been faithful to God. We have all failed him. But instead of my own faithfulness, I have put my faith and trust in Jesus for the forgiveness of my sins, and his power through the Holy Spirit to change my life. The point is God’s faithfulness, not my own. He is faithful always. “What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God’s faithfulness? Not at all! Let God be true and every man a liar. As it is written: ‘So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge.” -Romans 3:3-4)
The Gift of the Holy Ghost
All honest seekers of the truth can feel the influence of the Holy Ghost, leading them to Jesus Christ and His gospel. However, the fulness of the blessings given through the Holy Ghost are available only to those who receive the gift of the Holy Ghost and remain worthy.
(I’m out then. I was never worthy to begin with. Luke 17:10)
After a person is baptized into The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, one or more Melchizedek Priesthood holders
(Christians would object to this but actually, all Christians can say they are priests in the order of Melchizedek for that is what Christ was. Hebrews 7)
lay their hands on the person’s head and, in a sacred priesthood ordinance, confirm him or her a member of the Church. As part of this ordinance, called confirmation, the person is given the gift of the Holy Ghost.
(The Bible has no such instructions in order to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. One, if a person does not have the Holy Spirit, He does not belong to the Body of Christ. Romans 8:9. And two, no where has God ever said a person must be confirmed by the Mormon Church or the Catholic Church or any other Church to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. In the Bible God gave the gift of the Holy Spirit himself when someone believed, through baptism, and through the laying on of hands. At no time however, was receiving the Spirit tied to a Church, but instead it was always tied to someone’s personal faith and surrender to the Lordship of Christ. The gift comes by faith and surrender to Jesus Christ, period. Anything else is man’s creation. Acts 2:38-39, Romans 6:4, II Corinthians 5:17, Acts 19:1-7.)
The gift of the Holy Ghost is different from the influence of the Holy Ghost. Before baptism, a person can feel the influence of the Holy Ghost from time to time and through that influence can receive a testimony of the truth. After receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, a person has the right to the constant companionship of that member of the Godhead if he or she keeps the commandments.
(It is not tied solely to our keeping the commandments. I John 1:8 – I John 2:2)
Overall…
They believe so many right things about Jesus, yet get there from a different point. The Mormon Church sees Jesus as the Creator of this world, the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and the God (Jehovah) of the Old and New Testaments. Unfortunately, their teaching directs us to become as great as Jesus, to be a god like Jesus, while the Bible directs us to humble ourselves before Jesus and he will lift us up.
***Again, the Mormon Church evidently would dispute that they teach we can “become as great as Jesus, or be a god like Jesus.” At least one of the commentators below disputes it. Good. I am happy to be wrong on this! ***
It is Christ himself who is the focal point of our worship in the Bible. Christ who is the King of kings, and the Lord of lords. As I mentioned above, any doctrine that elevates man to God’s level or brings down Christ to ours is a dangerous doctrine. He is God and is part of God, worthy of our praise, and our all in all.
What does the Bible say?
“But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) “or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’” (that is to bring Christ up from the dead.) But what does it say? “the word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” -Romans 10:6-9
The real problem I have with what I’ve read from the Mormon Church, is the emphasis of salvation based on joining the Mormon Church, receiving the Holy Spirit through the Mormon Church, and everything being contingent on us keeping the commands and ordinances of God through the Mormon Church. The emphasis for our spiritual life is placed on us, our religious practices, and our adherence to the commands. The Bible says “it is by grace you have been saved, through faith -and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God -not by works, so that one can boast.” -Ephesians 2:8-9
And we would all do well to heed the following warning:
“You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.” -Galatians 5:4
Salvation is only found through Jesus Christ and our faith in Him. The Jews and Churches such as the Catholic Church, the Mormon Church and many of our own Churches have sought to justify themselves on the basis of a law or obedience to certain commands. Anyone, beginning with the Jews, who seeks righteousness by works will not attain it. Romans 9:30-10:4.
Righteousness before God comes only by faith (a commitment to, a trust in) in Christ Jesus.
noclaf said
I think you better go back and check “the atonement” again. Did you see anything there about the shed blood of Jesus on the cross for our sins? I think they have His suffering in the Garden as the place where the atonement takes place. No blood, no sacrifice, no salvation.
thecrazypastor said
Here’s what they said: “Jesus’s atoning sacrifice took place in the Garden of Gethsemane and on the cross at Calvary. In Gethsemane He submitted to the will of the Father and began to take upon Himself the sins of all people.” So they did include the cross, saying however that it “began” in the Garden. (which I think is wrong) At any rate you’re right, atonement only comes by blood.
friuliveneto said
You’re to be commended for using actual and official statements from LDS sources (and probably faulted for adding speculative conclusions and ideas own planets, “their teaching directs us to become as great as Jesus”).
“Why him? Why not me?” First of all because He is God and you are not. Secondly, because you are guilty of sin and He is not, and third because He could and you could not. While these bite sized pieces of LDS theology give a couple of representative concepts, they aren’t meant to be complete treatises. Mormons do believe that Jesus Christ created more than this earth (worlds without number.)
You suggested that the following statement was incorrect: “Jesus Christ redeems all people from the effects of the Fall,” writing, “(well, not yet. A lot of suffering continues to go on in this world.” I think you might have reason to question this statement if it appeared in the past tense, “Has redeemed” but as it is, the effects of the Fall–sin, suffering, death –will all be resolved as a result of Christ’s atonement and that’s why it says he “redeems” in the present tense.
“And also that ye might know of the coming of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and of earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and that ye might know of the signs of his coming, to the intent that ye might believe on his name.”
Brad James said
I am a Mormon and am not offended with your takes at all. For all intents and purposes, you believe many Mormon doctrines. One who has a testimony of the Bible virtually should have no difficulties in accepting the Book of Mormon as an authentic book of scripture testifying of Christ. Thanks for your stance, which I found of all places, on sportsbybrooks.com.
thecrazypastor said
Fruiliveneto, now that’s a cool name.
It’s difficult not to let the things I have been told, and the things I have read earlier about the Mormon Church, creep into the post or my opinions. For instance, this from Mormon Doctrine:
That exaltation which the saints of all ages have so devoutly sought is godhood itself. Godhood is to have the character, possess the attributes, and enjoy the perfections which the Father has. It is to do what he does, have the powers resident in him, and live as he lives, having eternal increase (MD, p. 321).
Is probably where I have heard and would come up with the idea of being as great as Jesus. If this is a misquote, no longer believed, or simply misunderstood idea, I’m certainly willing to hear and learn.
What my questions referred to was the confusion I have as to the role and person of Jesus in Mormon Doctrine. Was Jesus just like us in the beginning, a spirit who became flesh and advanced to a state of Godhood? Am I in the same situation as Jesus used to be? (I’d like to know some of those specifics from Mormon doctrine) How did Jesus become, well Jesus? In other words, what makes Jesus special and different and able to be the one who could do what we couldn’t do? Where did he originate? I know the answers from Christian perspective, but it would be interesting to hear them from the Mormon perspective.
You and I might end up writing a treatise if we’re not careful!
I see what you’re saying about Christ redeeming us from the effects of sin and I would agree with your clarification. I would still quibble with the word in present tense, with the present sufferings, but your explanation the Bible certainly agrees with.
Thank you for the comment. I hope you’re having a wonderful Tuesday!
thecrazypastor said
Brad, that’s encouraging to know. I would hope the Mormon Church is consistent enough with the Bible, and especially Jesus Christ, that regardless of the disagreements over smaller things, we have the main things nailed down.
I noticed that link coming over from sportsbybrooks! Pretty funny! The Michael Irvin thing is a good question for religious and non-religious sports fans I guess.
friuliveneto said
“their teaching directs us to become as great as Jesus”
Your quote from the book Mormon Doctrine accurately reflects LDS theology; but your comment that Mormon “teaching directs us to become as great as Jesus” does not in that it implies that we are to make ourselves equal. It is God who has promised to make us joint heirs with Christ and to sit with Christ on his throne.
Was Jesus just like us in the beginning, a spirit who became flesh and advanced to a state of Godhood? Scripturally, we aren’t told much about pre-mortal existence except that “in the beginning” whenever that point was, Jesus was God and we weren’t. He was God before becoming flesh and our possible exaltation is dependent upon entering into mortality. So, Christ is significantly, if not infinitely, different than we are. You might be interested to read an article that deals with this subject from about 25 years ago. You can find it on the LDS website, from the Ensign Magazine. It’s titled “Christ and the Creation” from June 1982. Mormonism teaches that we were all born as spirit children of God the Father before the creation of the earth and that Christ was the first born spirit of the Father. In our Book of Abraham, we’re told that Christ showed Abraham the spirits that would come to earth and that He explained that these spirits all had levels of intelligence with one spirit being more intelligent than another. He then said, “I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all.” (Abraham 3:19) This is just my personal conclusion, but I imagine that since Christ possessed more intelligence than the combined total of all the other spirits, this would make him significantly different than anyone.
I hope that has addressed most of your questions without turning into a treatise. If I missed something, I’d be happy to try again. Of course, the best source of LDS doctrine is found in our scriptures: The Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price. All those works can be accessed on the LDS.org website.
thecrazypastor said
Thank you Fruiliveneto for the detailed response. Thank you for taking the time to fill in some of the details that have been hard for me to come by, at least from a source that is speaking from the Mormon Church’s perspective.
You’ve given me some good stuff to consider, and the Mormon Church’s acceptance of the Biblical truth that Jesus was God (John 17:5), the God of Creation (Colossians 1:16), before becoming flesh and dying for our sins, is good to know. As you know, it has often been seen otherwise by those of us in Christendom.
What I take from the rest is that at one point, we were all born as spirit children of the Father, but the firstborn was Christ. This to me, would seem to indicate that Jesus had a beginning? Long before us of course, but nevertheless a beginning? Whereas God the Father is eternal?
This would seem to make them separate Gods, although related in much the same way as my own son is related to me? It also seems to say that Christ is related to us in that we have the same Father although Christ far surpasses us in power (given to him by the Father) and intelligence.
While we do disagree, Jesus himself taking on the name of the God “I Am,” a name indicating no end and no beginning, (John 8:58), and the existence of Jesus before time began (II Timothy 1:9), and the statements of Jesus in (Revelation 1) demonstrating his eternal existence and complete oneness with the Father. (Hebrews 1:3 and John 1)
It is also, (saying this for the benefit of others) not Christianity’s traditional teaching that we were all spirit children of the father before our mortal existence. Those teachings come from the Mormon Church, but…
…there is a difference in disagreeing over issues that are non-essential to salvation, and disagreeing over the core issues which are essential. At least on the surface of things, it doesn’t seem that understanding or agreeing on the facts of Christ’s pre-mortal existence, or ours, would necessarily send someone to heaven or hell.
Worshiping Jesus would. Believing in his sacrifice for our sins would. Do Mormons worship Jesus as God or do they worship the Father only?
Thanks again for your comments.
Valerie from Plains, KS said
Brian,
How are you??? Hope everyone is well there. We miss you here! I just wanted to let you know I attended and was a member of the Mormon Church for about 4 years. If you ever want to discuss or clarify some of the church’s beliefs, I’d be happy to. The main reason I left though was because I felt I could never measure up, and I was so unworthy. After searching many churches and finally reading and studying the entire bible for myself, I discovered that salvation is not by my works, but by faith in Christ. Gal 2:21 “I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing.” After I discovered this, and turned my life over to Him, HE changed me. Now I realize why I could never do it on my own and never will be able to. It is only Jesus that has the power to change us. We can’t do it on our own. The church does have some truth to it (like many churches), but it was missing on the main mark for me. It was impossible for me to measure up to all of their standards, commands, ordinances while in the church and I thank God that he sent Christ so we don’t have to. I am not saying that I am not accoutable for my works, but I’m just glad I don’t have to count on being “worthy enough” for my salvation. I have to say though, that there are some wonderful people in the church who do great things and are honestly and earnestly seeking the truth. But with their belief that the Mormon church is the only true church, and when they are discouraged from questioning, I have to wonder if they will ever understand that salvation is through faith, not adhering to all the ordinances, commands, etc.
thecrazypastor said
Hey Valerie! We miss you guys, too and hope things are going incredibly well for ya! You know, I think you hit the nail on the head, and the fact you were part of the Mormon Church gives you some real credibility, too. (not to mention the fact I already respected your opinion) When I started taking a closer look at the Mormon Church a few days ago, I did so because I realized almost everything I knew about them came from anti-Mormon Church sources. And typically, those sources emphasized the teachings that sound weird: stuff like Jesus and Satan being brothers, God living on planet Kolob, polygamy, becoming exalted into a god-state type of thing…
And as I have found out, (not surprisingly) those descriptions are disputed, AND I don’t even think they are the real problem the Mormon Church faces. The Mormon Church seems to go off-base when it comes to works or faith-based salvation. The Mormons aren’t the only church group that misses the mark here, but nevertheless they seem to have so much emphasis (in their wording at least) to salvation being contingent on following the ordinances that they create another Law for themselves. You are saved as long as you follow these rules, etc… And Paul warned the Galatians that if they seek to be justified by the Law, they had fallen away from grace. -that’s a big warning, because it is only by God’s grace we are saved!
Still, I agree with you that there are some wonderful people in the Mormon church who respect the Bible, and search for the truth like all of us. And I hope those Mormons reading this understand that I would give the same warning to others who base their salvation on works. I’m not singling out the Mormons in that regard. Often, the Catholic Church, and many legalistic protestant Churches do the same.
Valerie from Plains, KS said
I was raised Roman Catholic (I’m Italian, so it’s almost like a part of our heritage), but if I get into that we could be here for days!
Anonymous said
i dont like god
i dont think god is real
Martha said
You are very naive in trying to reconcile Mormonism with Christianity. Are you really ready for a universe populated with gods and their goddess harems?
Try Youtube. It’s much more accurate than your wistful speculations.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5dscqcNOGM&feature=related
There’s a reason why REAL protestant and Catholic theologians consider mormonism a cult. But don’t ask Mormons about their beliefs because they won’t tell you. It’s all a secret. Like all the weird ceremonies and rituals. And the hierarchical structure that must be obeyed…or else.
thecrazypastor said
I’m certainly not trying to reconcile Mormonism with anything. In this particular post, I was trying to figure out what Mormons believe and see how that compared to what the Bible actually teaches. And I purposefully did this using their official beliefs -especially because their beliefs have changed over the years, and because it’s hard to get specifics from Mormonism. Most Mormons aren’t keeping secrets, though in my opinion. Most either don’t know everything their church believes, or sometimes they don’t like getting into the details because some people perceive their views as “weird.”
You should know however there has been a lot more written and said about Mormonism by Christian scholars than you’ll find on youtube. The arguments go a lot deeper than merely wistful thinking.
I would bet your average Mormon believes in a way that is consistent with their website. And since Mormonism is a religion that (like the Catholics) believes it can have further revelations, change what it teaches AND HAS over the years, then you almost have to look at Mormonism today and say… “hey what do you believe?”
Because it can change and has changed. And to me, it’s more fair to listen to their answer and respond, as opposed to assuming everything they say is a lie.
If they lie and keep secrets about what they believe, then God will judge them for that, because he knows the secrets of men’s hearts.
LdsNana-AskMormon said
Who was that masked – man?
I think I love YOU!
tDMg
LdsNana-AskMormon
MARIE said
THE MORMONS ARE NOT BEING HONEST ABOUT WHAT THEY BEIEVE . THEY ONLY PUT ON THEIR WEBSITE WHAT THEY WANT PEOPLE TO THINK,THEN ONCE A PERSON CONVERTS THEY LEARN THE REAL TRUTH. MOROMONISM IS A CULT. CHRISTIANS SHOULD STAND FIRM ON THE TRUTH . MORMONS ARE NOT CHRISTIANS!!!!!
Eric said
While I think you did a great job with your topics…from what I am learning… you left out most of the stuff about Jesus that Mormonism teaches that isnt tradional Christianity.
Like Jesus was a polygamist?
Is this true?
Thanks.
thecrazypastor said
Eric, you make a valid point. In this discussion I’ve been trying to focus on what the Mormons DON’T leave out. You know, just to focus on what they are “officially” saying on their website. I did this because it just seemed like a fair thing to do. I want to say “Here’s what you said you believe…officially… and here’s what the Bible says” -that kinda thing. Plus, the Mormons do believe they can change their beliefs through further revelations (just as Catholics have changed theirs) so what they used to believe, really might not apply anymore.
For instance, with your question, they actually counsel avoiding the subject these days…
(From their website) “Does the Holy Ghost have a body? If not, when will he get one? Was Jesus married? What is the full sequence of events before and after the Millennium? Who will a child belong to if the parents are divorced and they each remarry? Some subjects require quiet contemplation in an atmosphere of reverence such as the temple. Other subjects, because of their questionable and controversial nature, can detract from the Spirit. Each of us shares the responsibility for being careful about introducing discussion of the sacred or the controversial.
“God has revealed everything necessary for our salvation,” said Elder Joseph B. Wirthlin of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. “We should teach and dwell on the things that have been revealed and avoid delving into so-called mysteries. My counsel to teachers in the Church, whether they instruct in wards and stakes, Church institutions of higher learning, institutes of religion, seminaries, or even as parents in their homes, is to base their teachings on the scriptures and the words of latter-day prophets” (Ensign, Nov. 1994, 77) (Wayne Lynn, former manager of basic curriculum in the Church Curriculum Department)
So on the one hand, I applaud them for saying they “should teach and dwell on the things that have been revealed”… and to “base their teachings on the scriptures,” (although elevating “latter-day prophets” to that of Scripture is something I think is not only wrong, but can lead to false-doctrine), but on the other hand they didn’t exactly say “no, Jesus was not a polygamist” did they? So I’m left thinking it probably depends on which Mormon I talk to. Some might believe that Jesus was a polygamist, some might not. Sounds like the Christian Church when it comes to the subject of speaking in tongues. Some believe in it, some do not.
The Mormon Church is so vague in their official stance on some things, I wanted to just look at what they admitted to, and have tried to focus on that in this discussion. I will admit that they have certainly seemed to move their beliefs more in line with Scripture in recent years. That’s a good thing for them.
Jenna Wiggins said
You had me laughing my blessed assurance off! I love the comments you make inbetween. I am a born again Christian and I thought I would do a little studing on Mormon and JW beliefs. I have to say, your’s was the most fun….Also very informative…. I didn’t want to leave that out. You are very well informed and taught me a lot.
God bless you and my He keep you inspired to do His work and spread His word,
Jenna
Macpoetsgirl said
If you tell any Mormon that you believe that the church is brainwashing them and tells them how to think, what to think, what to do and how to do it, I’ll bet you they will all give you the same pat answer. Try it! It’s amusing. LOL I swear I have gotten the same answer from all the Mormons I have ever made that comment to.
Macpoetsgirl said
To Thecrazypastor: As a 53 year old catholic I can honestly say that my church has never told me that doing good deeds will give me salvation. And upon researching many religions the only one that I find that hasn’t changed much or evolved among the years are the devil worshipers. Most satanic rituals haven’t changed in decades but most other religions have changed in many ways. If religions didn’t change or evolve throughout the years we would all be praying in front of 3 headed status and trowing virgins into volcanos.
The church has always encouraged me to do good deeds because it’s the right thing to do. But it has never said that good deeds bring salvation. And unlike any other church that I know of, you do not have to be a catholic for the church nor for a catholic to give you a helping hand. We are taught to love thy neighbor. Doesn’t say it has to be a catholic neighbor. I live in Utah where the people are predominantly Mormom and know of actual Mormons being turned away for help by their own church. And the same person has been given a helping hand by the catholic church.
I’m not a very good catholic but I’m also not a very good American. I do not think that the United States nor the Catholic Church are perfect, but their isn’t another country I’d rather be from nor another religion I would prefer to be associated with.
Brian said
Hey MacPoetsgirl, thanks for the comments! Generally when you ask a church how to receive salvation, they’ll couch it up in a lot of beautiful language about Jesus, but it’s the specifics of the Catholic Church and others that require certain works. That’s what I was getting at. For the Mormons, it requires following ordinances, and if you want to reach the highest level of heaven, you certainly must belong to a Mormon Church.
I compared that to the Catholic Church because they tend to be very works based in their teaching as well. The Church teaches in their official doctrine that unless someone is a member of the Catholic Church, the only way to be saved is by the grace of God. So salvation is based in some part, on a work. The work of placing my membership with the Catholic Church. That is maintained by further works of observing the sacraments. And when going to confession, we are instructed to make up for our sins with various works: Restitution (a good thing no doubt) hail Marys, etc… Those practices teach forgiveness of sins is based on whether or not I make up for them in some way, or whether or not I confess them to a priest, etc…
Now, the Catholic Church is so large, and priests have so much leeway, so to speak, to teach what they believe, that it really can depend on what Catholic Church you go to. So my generalizations might not fit your experience exactly.
But it was exactly this question, of salvation by works or salvation by grace through faith that caused the split between Protestants and Catholics in the first place. Well that, and the selling of indulgences -an evil practice of the church at that time.
But I’m not talking about changing “practices” when I talk about churches that change. You’re right that those change with almost any church, and they usually depend upon the culture around them. I’m talking about changing basic doctrines and beliefs.
A Protestant Church might sing hymns and another might sing praise songs, and another might not sing at all. Some take communion every week, others once a month, others every quarter. (and many condemn other churches for not doing what they do, so in effect, they too are basing salvation on certain practices or “works”) But the authority of most of those churches, is supposed to be the written Word of God which supersedes any church tradition and any church leader.
My Church for instance, has the Bible as its authority, and whatever the Scriptures taught to the Church 1,842.5 years ago… still applies to my church today. A Church leader cannot change a belief in the Protestant Churches, as the popes have done in the Catholic Church from time to time.
Of course, the Catholic Church holds that church tradition, and quite often the pope’s teaching, to be as authoritative as the Scripture. From time to time, those traditions change not only the practices, but the doctrine and teaching as well. That can’t happen so much in churches who base their authority strictly on the authority and teaching of the Scriptures, and there is little to no change in their beliefs and doctrines. My church actually has a basic goal of holding to the same teaching and truths as the early church did nearly 2000 years ago.
By the way, I would disagree that religion had to evolve though or we’d be throwing virgins into a volcano.
The Lord spoke to Adam, then to Noah, then to Abraham, then Moses etc…
So all religion really has to do is listen and pay attention and follow the Creator of the Universe. He has always spoken to the human race in one way or another, and the Bible says, God never changes. He’s the same God today, yesterday, and forever.
Macpoetsgirl said
Everyones religious experience is personal and different and mine is mostly based on a great priest that I met when I was 12. His name was Father Foley. I was a very confused kid because my mom was catholic, my baby sitter was a Jehova Witness and I had aunts and uncles married to Evangelist, Baptist, Jewish, Buhdist and 7 Day Adventist. And Father Foley said these words to me.
Even though I’m a catholic priest I do not believe that only catholics will have salvation. So use the KISS system. Which means Keep It Simple Stupid. You should always attend a bible based church. Their is no other book to follow. And keep in mind that attending church doesn’t mean you have to attend a building. You should always abide by the 10 commandments because even if they aren’t true they make you a better person when you follow them. Don’t ever do anything that you would be ashamed to do in front of God. Don’t be hard when you judge others because one day God is going to judge you the same way you judge others. Treat you body like it is Gods temple. To thyne own self be true because it doesn’t matter what anyone else thinks of you what matters is your relationship with God. Do good deeds because you want to not because you have to. Because life has a way of returning all your favors and all your bad deeds 10 fold. It even has a name it’s called Karma. Always forgive your children because one day God will have to forgive you because I don’t know any perfect people and I’m over 50 years old. The bible can be interpreted many ways by many people and what matters is what you understand the truth to be. God will never judge you if you misinterpret any part of the bible because he can read your heart. And just remember that God doesn’t expect you to be perfect he only expects that you be the best that you could be and when you fail that you truly repent.
A
Dan said
Actually if you do more research you find that at every point the Mormon church contradicts the Bible and historical Christianity. The Mormons believe that Jesus is literally the “flesh and blood” son of God and is not the creator. D&C states that Jesus was not born by the power of the Holy Spirit. Jehovah isn’t even a real word! D&C also says man can progress to godhood. They believe the holy ghost is a different God than God the father and both are different than Jesus. Brigham Young said their are many gods and many planets inhabited by people (including the sun and moon)! Brigham young also said only those who enter into polygamy can be gods or even the sons of god. I could go on and on but will stop there and hope that is enough to get people to research more and earnestly seek the truth.